Guest Post - Nagash vs Dungeon Saga

My mate and occasional guest blogger on here Mike has another rant to get off his chest, it's the old familiar topic of pricing at Games Workshop, however a couple of recent releases have really made the scale of the issue come to the fore, over to Mike.......

Being an old Undead/ Tomb King’s gamer I always fancied having a Nagash model, but somehow I never got round to buying one one. The old metal model was not a priority buy back in the day and they are quite hard to find now, even on ebay. Games Workshop have recently brought out a New Nagash, and it is you would expect quite a spectacular model. Actually its little too spectacular for my taste if the truth be told (I disagree I think it's fantastic - Keith). It might even look a bit out of place next to my old skeletons, and I’d be frightened of knocking it over (really, if you knew me)(There is no clumsier human being - Keith). No seriously, it does look really nice and I wouldn’t mind one for my shelf. The really bad news is its £65. Sorry Games workshop I’m just not going to pay that for a Nagash. As I understand it that’s £65 for just the model too, no add ons, extras or freebies. The rules for Nagash appear in a separate book and you have to pay a lot of extra money. Interest over. 

This is admittedly an Awesome model

 Fortunately I was alerted to a new Kickstarter project by Mantic a couple of weeks ago and it cheered me up a lot. The quality of Mantics previous Kickstarters and the sheer amount of money being pledged to this one alerted me that it might be something to really look forward to. This Dungeon Saga game seems to be something like Warhammer Quest, where the player battles their way through various rooms and challenges meeting various cool baddies on the way. You know the script. We don’t know for sure of course because the game is still in production, but when I saw what comes in the box I went for it immediately. It turns out that for a pledge of $100 (that’s £4 less than Nagash) I will be getting an entire gaming system, packed with new models. Mantic have also Thrown in art prints, bonus scenarios, digital adventure books and all of the Dwarf King’s Hold scenarios for people like me who didn’t get around to buying those games first time around. That’s worth waiting 12 months for in my opinion. The Mantic crew who usually seem to have their finger on the pulse, have even included a mystery ‘undead demonlord’ model. Good move Mantic, I haven’t thought about Nagash since.

How much stuff?

 

I have to admit I made the same decision and I am eagerly awaiting the chance to play Dungeon Saga.  The 12 month delay is a slight issue, but once you get started on kickstarter being the way to get new games you have a steady supply of big boxes coming, before this arrives I'm expecting Deadzone wave 2, Mars Attacks, Deadzone wave 3, and Dreadball extreme.  And despite a few missing bits (that always get replaced eventually) getting the big box of kickstarter goodness is always a joy.  This is Mikes first kickstarter and I hope he has a good experience and helps fund more products that I also want to buy!

Guest Post - Airfix Tiger 1 Tank (1/76) and Allied 25lb Field Gun (1/76)

Last month I let my friend Mike have a go at writing a post on this very blog, which turned into an epic three-part rant about the current state of Games Workshop.  Well he seems to have got the blogging bug, but isn't yet ready to commit to starting his own blog, accordingly he's written another article for mine. 

As I posted a few weeks ago we recently finally made a trip to the tank museum at Bovington, and I inevitably came away with a tank model (this Whippet), however I wasn't the only one, over to Mike....

 

I went to Bovington tank museum this month and came away with an Airfix Tiger tank model. My Grandfather fought against Tigers in WW2 so it was the obvious choice. I have also built the 25lb field gun he manned in the African desert campaign and the invasion of Italy.

 

The Tiger was a little more expensive than a standard Airfix 1/76 vehicle (at £9.99) . I was happy to pay it because the museum is really good, and I wanted to support it.

 

The Tiger was a beast of a machine in its day and this model reflects that fact. Its a typical, quality Airfix moulding which looks just like the real thing. I used Humbrol oil based paints (I'm not a fan at all of these - Keith), and as usual they worked well. There is some minor bobbling on each model, but that’s because I used a poor brush and I should have left a bit more time for each coat of paint to dry.

 

 

The turret is not glued onto the tank turret. That means it turns very easily, which is a nice feature. Apparently allied anti-tanks gunners believed the sides of the turrets to be a slight weakness on Tigers so they targeted this area. My grandfather said that Germans crews eventually began to attach slabs of concrete to defend the weak point. I have so far resisted the urge to make my own slabs.

 

The down side was the tracks. Airfix produce tracks as a strip of bendy plastic that needs to be bonded together and then fitted over the wheels. The instructions say “Join by applying heat”. I tried a ‘dab’ with a soldering iron but even quite a long touch wasn’t enough to stick the ends of the tracks together.  In the end I had to apply a little more heat than I’d initially wanted to, and this caused a small amount of bumping and warping to each track. It wasn’t disastrous, but its still mildly annoying. (I really dislike the Airfix method of representing tracks at this scale, see my Whippet post for my own thoughts - Keith)

 

Apparently one advantage of Airfix’s track design is that the tracks are able to move round with the wheels. Unfortunately mine do not. Initially I thought that one of the wheels must have been aligned, but they all appeared to be straight.  After construction I noticed that one track was bent to an angle. I can only imagine that when the track was stretched around the wheels the weak point, the soldered strip, had stretched slightly. Its a bit annoying that after all that work the track edges its way off after one rotation. If I were to build this model again I’d try to staple the tracks together instead. I rate the model 7/10. It would have been a 9/10 if the tracks had a better design, or if there had more thorough instructions for them.
 

 

I picked up the 25 pounder for £4.50 all in on ebay – Its a standard small Airfix model, not hard to build and quite accurate in its detail. The three sections of the model attach for transportation.    

Crew members are offered on separate bases. The crew aren’t very well moulded, but its hard to tell from a distance.  Airfix only offer a late war Europe colour scheme, and it took quite a lot of paint to cover the green plastic. Those are my only complaints about the kit really. 
 

 

Ideally I would have spent a little more time on each model, and possibly made a diorama. As it stands they can shoot at one another from opposite ends of the shelf!

 

Guest Post - Games Workshop Past, Present and Future - Part 3

So onto the final part of Mike's discussion about the state of GW  Part 1 Part 2

Games Workshop has tried all sorts of things over the years, but through the ups and downs I have generally been impressed with the quality of the models they have produced. After a spell of selling a few dodgy plastic/metal hybrid kits in the late ‘90s, the quality of the kits (to my mind) has improved again. Some of the recent plastics have been excellent, no doubt about that. And despite my complaint about pricing, the models look great on the table as well. Then we were offered something even better...

 

I was looking forward to GW’s Finecast range when it was first brought out. Forgeworld resin models had been out of my price range for years, and I was keen to see what working with resin would be like. So... I did the proper thing and walked into a GW store (ignoring their sales pitch), and purchased a Finecast Zoanthrope. When I got around to opening the blister pack later that day, I was somewhat surprised. I had assumed, like most people must have done, that my Finecast model was going to be finely cast. Unfortunately as you gradually learn over years, one should never assume anything. It was not a fine model at all. There were some lumpy imperfections on the main body, which annoyed me... not so much because I couldn’t fix those problems (using a file). I was more irritated that a GW employee had gone out of his way to ‘big up’ the quality of what I had bought, just a few hours earlier.

 

 Oh my what a big hole!

 

After construction, the Finecast model never did look quite as nice as my metal Z’s. There was something about its gait that I was never quite happy with. Moreover the thing tended not to stay upright on the gaming board. It was not overbalancing as such, like some of the very old metal kits did. The model just seemed a little bit too top heavy and light for use on a crowded battlefield. The slightest touch sent it toppling. For that reason I sometimes kept it in a box, while it’s supposedly inferior metal brethren graced our games table.

 

When I moved to the big city, my Finecast Z was stored in its own section of a padded metal case. After some months of them not being handled, I unpacked my models. The Finecast model bent when I picked it up (by the base), and it broke off at a point of weakness (Z’s have a thin ‘tail’, connecting to the base). The metal Z’s, which I have owned for years, and have all been dropped a good few times, and are all still in one piece.

 

My first finecast mini - Keith

 

Maybe I had bought a ‘dud’ model, and the quality of Finecast is actually okay? - Perhaps. But it seems that I was not alone. People from my gaming group and various others have reported bubbles in Finecast resin. These faults might be unavoidable in resin, or they may not, I don’t know. Whether it is or not; GW are not afraid to charge a lot of money for Finecast, and to talk up its quality. Without listing the full extent of the horror, until recently GW was asking £15.50 for a single Finecast ripper swarm... (cough) ... mind you, even they realised that one was a complete a giraffe. The product was removed from GW’s website once their new Tyranid range surfaced. These prices, combined with the borderline false advertising associated with Finecast, which has caused me to be annoyed enough to write this short article.

 

So why might I buy Finecast, or even GW’s expensive (but good) plastics over a cheaper set from Mantic’s range? The answer is I no longer do. The Mantic models are almost as nice as GW plastics (some are, some aren't - Keith), and I get a lot more for my money (yes definitely - Keith). My only real complaint about Mantic is that a few of the smaller models are a tiny bit warped/bent near the legs. But hey this is plastic not Finecast, so any relatively experienced modeller can fix the faults with polystyrene cement, I managed it. Let it be known that poly cement is an amazing tool. The folks at GW clearly think so as well, judging by what they charge for the product.

 

The quality of the plastics has definitely gone up.

 

Buying cheaper but slightly dodgier plastics is not something I worry about greatly. To my mind that’s sort of the point of having a lot of plastic units to game with isn’t it? Besides, inexpensive plastics, even single pose ones, are great for kids who are learning to how to make models. No parents in tears when bits break off either, even if minis end up in the bin. We are increasingly offered less of those cheaper, expendable options with GW. That’s because GW isn’t for the average young enthusiast any more – despite the pictures of happy kids holding GW branded tape measures we see churned out by their marketing department. Instead, GW is rapidly becoming a big collectors range. And that said, arguably something of a dodgy collectors range, with Finecast being what it is.

 

I could ramble on further, but I will not. Instead, allow me to conclude with a polite message to the powers that be at Games Workshop.

 

GW - I can forgive the fact that we need more models to play your games these days. The games are quite good. However, please realise that you pricing strategy is driving people away from the hobby. You have some real competitors now, and they know what they’re doing. I can’t help but see that you are too precious to admit this. Please have a good think about your next business moves, because if they aren’t the correct ones, there might not be any Games Workshop stores in a few years.

 

So obviously this is a big topic at the moment and whilst GW don't seem to be in trouble yet they aren't doing as well as they were.  I agree with Mike that the prices are driving customers away, it's frustrating, we don't want GW to do badly, far from it, we love the worlds they have created and this fantastic hobby they introduced us to, but if they continue as they are we simply won't be buying much from them in the future.  Thoughts anyone?

So thanks to Mike for writing these posts, it's been a successful experiment I think and I'll have to have a look at doing it again some time.

Guest Post - Games Workshop Past, Present and Future - Part 2

Today we have part 2 of my friend Mike's epic rant on the state of Games Workshop.  If anyone missed it yesterday here's a Link to part one.  Over to Mike.......

Previously I reflected on gaming in the 1990’s. Make no mistake; I think the current edition of Warhammer Fantasy offers us a better, better balanced game than the really old editions did. However a lot has changed at Games workshop. Here I comment on the current major bugbear of GW gamers, the cost of the hobby.

 

My proper first unit purchase was 20 Skeleton warriors at £12, I was happy with this affordable set. 15 years later I think that some of GW plastics are still affordable. For example £20 for 16 Skeletons/marauders/equivalent box sets isn’t too bad, inflation taken into account.  These plastic sets are also all well designed, easy to assemble and come with some extra bits and pieces. Moreover the units have long been available, along with a few more choice units in battalion box sets. This makes all of the units included a little more affordable still; even if a kid who pays with his paper round money might struggle a little. That’s the positive bit.

 

Some of the classic skeletons

 

The Empire battalion set, now available at £65 (I purchased it at £60 3-4 years ago) stills seemed to me to remain a fairly reasonable buy (for 4 units). But when I looked at GW’s website recently, I realised the photograph on the box had changed, and a unit was missing. At some point in time one of the units, a special choice, the Greatswords, had been removed from the set and replaced with the old cannon model. The cannon retails at £15.50. Greatswords are now available as a separate set only, at £25.50 for 10 models. No new moulds here and slight price rise as well.

 

The astute among you will realise this is the sort of move that GW has become very, very good at in recent times. While some of the older plastic troops (for now) are just about within financial reach of the average collector, we gamers have to pay quite a lot of extra money for the special and rare choices that are rapidly filling the army books. Similarly, in 40k Marine players will be familiar the making the painful choice between forking out for a Land Raider (now £45) or another purchase that contains about the same amount of plastic, but is worth considerably less in gaming terms. Mind you that comparison might not stand any more, as most of the Marine and 40k prices in have been jacked up horrendously of late.

 

The Space Marine Sterngaurd kit is fantastic but £30 for 5 plastic marines is insane!

 

Personally I think that if sanity is to be restored to the hobby, then there has to be some sort of basic ratio between the amount of the material a model is made from and its price. £1.25/model (Skeletons/Marauders) and £2.55/model (Greatswords) are all plastic models, and about the same size and weight, but the prices are very different. There may be variable design costs, and inflation of course – but work out the percentage difference in cost between some model sets, it’s an eye opener. By doing this sort of thing, GW is really saying that models like the Greatswords are now real collector’s pieces. Only the wealthier collectors will be able to field these choices in any number, and that’s that (and don't forget that 8th ed fantasy encourages bigger units - Keith). It’s quite something for a gaming store that markets its games as family friendly products. GW doesn’t see things that way though, as I realised when I saw what it was charging for some of its actual collectors pieces, in Finecast of course.

 

Back in 5^th Ed, flawed as it was, all one had to do was spend £8 on a durable metal hero/lord and that purchase made a real difference to the army – but not any more. Nowadays one really does have to purchase a number of different sets in order to stand a chance of having a genuinely competitive game. GW knows this and it has clearly adjusted its prices accordingly.

 

Recently I had to make a decision between purchasing the Empire battalion and another £65 set, Mantics Deadzone. Because I didn’t know too much about Mantic, I considered delaying my Mantic purchase in favour of the battalion. However because Greatswords had been but cut from the battalion set, I plumped for Deadzone instead. As it turns out Deadzone is a wonderful set and good value for money to boot. It will be a central part of my gaming life for some time to come. (Deadzone is great, look out for my review coming soon - Keith)

 

Mike considers his next move in a game of Mantic's Deadzone

 

A further nasty surprise arrived last week in the form of White Dwarfs preview of the new Tyranid range.  It’s all nice looking stuff of course, it always it. But once again a lot of the items are expensive, even the troops. At £33 for 3, we may expect significant upgrades to the Tyranid Warriors in the new codex…. . As for the choicer models at £48 a pop - nice as it is, the new Harpy will not be on my list of future purchases.

 

Many years ago, my old man bought a bag of chips in St Pancras Station. He embarrassed me at the counter by saying, “at that price I’d expect them to be gold plated”... sadly I’m starting to know how he felt… Goodness knows how many Mantic Enforcers one might be able to put on a table for £48 (31 for £50, including 2 10 man normal squads, a five man assault squad, a 5 man heavy support squad and a hero - Keith).

 

In the final part I’m going to comment on something that has impressed me over the years -The quality of the models.
 

Oh dear, price, perhaps the most controversial aspect of GW's behaviours over recent years.  Ultimately I think the prices are too high and that's been reflected in the recently announced poor results.  I think it's a hang-over of the pre-internet days when for many people GW was the only readily available source of miniatures, and I would spend all my hobby budget in GW no matter what the prices were. I was (am) addicted to buying minis, so they could keep rising prices and I would still buy them.  They now have a lot of competition that I can buy from at the click of a few buttons.  I still spend a lot on minis, but a lot less of that money is going to games workshop, their share of my budget has decreased from 100% to maybe 30%.  If I'm a typical customer that spells disaster.  I love most of their products, but the prices are making me go elsewhere.  I think Mikes missed one issue with his proposed plastic/price ratio though and that's that the moulds are the main cost, and cost similar no matter how many times you make models from them, so minis that will sell less units (like rare units and heroes) will have to cost more than tactical marines for example, so as to recover the costs of making those moulds.

Part 3

Guest Post - Games Workshop Past, Present and Future - Part 1

 

 Something different today for my blog, a bit of an experiment if you will.  One of my long-time gaming partners asked if he could write a post on my blog explaining his current frustrations with Games Workshop.  I agreed to let him have a go, I got a lot more than expected, this is part one of a three part discussion/rant that I'll be posting over the next few days, over to Mike......

 

Sometime in late 1997 I walked into Games workshop and purchased my first Warhammer fantasy model. It was a £5 Undead Skeleton Chariot; an average model but I was chuffed with it. Collecting GW minis seemed fun and affordable to me and I was soon able to get enough models to play a fantasy game at the minimum recommended 1000pts level. Several more armies and regular gaming followed. We lost our gaming area for a while (When I went off to uni as I was the only one with a big table - Keith), and it wasn’t until somewhere in the mid/late 2000’s (6^th and 7^th ed. by then) that the old minis were brought out again. At that stage I realised that I no longer seemed to have enough, or the correct models to play larger games in the new editions. Despite having a job, I was also reluctant to purchase the models I needed to play those battles.

What had changed? One reason was the cost of minis (more on that later), but first a more general observation.

 

Some of the old chaos warriors that were popular in our gaming group back in the day.

 

I have compared GWs sample 1000pt list Chaos warrior list from the 5^th ed. Codex (I used it couple of times in the late 1990’s) with the same list, but constructed from the much later 7^th edition Warriors of Chaos codex.

 

Sample war band from 5^th ed. Codex

 

Chaos Hero with a shield on a chaos steed with the potion of strength and helm of many eyes

6 Chaos knights with lances, hand weapons and chaos armour including a standard

12 Chaos Warriors with hand weapons, heavy armour and shields

= 999pts

 

The same war band selected from the 7^th ed. Codex

 

Chaos Hero with a shield on a Chaos steed plus a maximum magic item allowance

6 Chaos Knights with lances, hand weapons and chaos armour + full command

12 Chaos warriors with additional great weapons and shields + full command

= 797pts

 

Right - I’ve gone to town a little with this 7th ed. list by adding full command groups and some slightly more expensive extras; however there’s still a deficit of more than 200 pts.

 

One sensible way to address the balance is to add some marauders. A basic marauder (which in 7^th ed. was 1/3 of the points cost of the 5^th edition selection). Give a 30 man marauder unit shields and flails + full command and phew we’re there! Okay, okay I could have thrown in a unit of warriors instead, but there’s noting like variety and besides, I wanted to make a point!

 

Mike concentrating on a game of Axis & Allies

 

People in our gaming group have commented that we have generally needed more models to play the same points limited tournaments which we had organised in previous years. Clearly, any collector would need quite a few more models for the above 1000pt Chaos list in 7^th ed., than they would have in 5^th. Now, I only have a handful of armies, and I don’t have an exhaustive collection of current and past codices to browse through. I’d be interested to see if this thesis holds up for other selections (perhaps Chaos is a poor example?). I’d be equally interested to see how other armies have changed over the years, right up to the current edition in 2014.

 

I don’t think many enthusiasts want to go back to the old rules of 5^th edition. However I have to say that as a teenager it was essential to my staying in the hobby that I could acquire armies relatively quickly at a ‘minimum’ 1000pts level within 2-3 months. Moreover I could do this using money from my paper round. I wonder how many young potential gamers can do that today? And I haven’t even begun to discuss a more pressing issue – the ever increasing cost of the miniatures…. Part 2 to follow.

 

Mike does have a point about decreasing points costs for minis, I remember back when I started 40K a space marine tactical squad was twice what it was now and a 1K army was a leader and three squads.  But the question is whether this matters? Some might say an army with two units and a hero isn't really an army at all and that even at 1000pts you'd hope to field more than that.  Having said that chaos is a bit of an extreme example with very expensive elite troops, but I do think Mike is right about the overall trend.  So again does it matter? We'd be interested to hear peoples thoughts.